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 Last Grand Prix for HRT?

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PostSubject: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:41 am

If the growing rumours are to be believed, HRT will shut down after Sunday’s Brazilian Grand Prix. They’re in a desperate situation right now, even using re-condition parts because they cannot afford new equipment.

It would be a shame if HRT left, it’s never nice to see a racing team shut down and people lose their jobs.

Sadly, HRT didn’t really seem to have a purpose in F1. They limped into F1 with a Dallara-designed car, and that car didn’t have a single update throughout 2010. Aerodynamic and mechanical progression is so critical to F1 success, yet HRT made virtually no updates to their cars. Heck, keeping the brakes working was a struggle for HRT.


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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:26 pm

Compared to the toaster manufacter thay've done really well. This will be the end for them and no one will buy the team.

I have a prediction to add to this. Murussia will be done in 12 months time.
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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:08 pm

HRT is not an attractive proposition to buy, that’s for sure. They need a lot of investment to move further up the grid. A potential silver lining, might be if a middle eastern investment company wants a quick way to own and run an F1 team. If they showed up with the cash, I doubt the FIA would say no, and as a current team, I doubt the FIA would decline a HRT in wealthier ownership.

Marussia seem to be doing well, they’ve outpaced Caterham on many occasions despite Marussia haven’t got KERS and the worse Cosworth engine.

Sauber and Force India are great examples of how extra cash is not necessarily the key to extra success. Sauber in particular has understood the tyres well, and got the most out of their resource.

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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:11 am

Murussia are a car company that hasn't sold any cars (or hadn't at least) and I can't see how they will continue.

I think a start up would be a better bet than the remains of HRT
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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:03 am

It's amazing that they've been able to survive this long. I doubt anyone would be willing to invest anything into the team, unless they really do believe that doing so can provide something worthwhile to them.

What that 'something' is, I have no idea. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:47 am

Isn't the Marussia F1 team financed by a private investment group? Otherwise, I cannot see how they've stayed in F1 by relying on Marussia sales.

I agree that a start-up would be better than HRT. HRT started off being years behind in development, the Dallara in 2010 was not worthy of a proper F1 car, and either of their own F1 cars were worthy either.

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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:16 am

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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:34 am

Well, they barley managed to complete the final few Grand's Prix, using re-conditioned parts instead of buying new components.

F1 is a deeply expensive business, but I don't think that was HRT's shortfall. There didn't seem any ambition or vision to improve, they seemed content at just running at the back, as long as the stewards allowed them to compete. Minardi and Jordan were back markers when they operated, but the margin was never 8 seconds a lap. Those teams did bring technical updates in the season, whereas in 2010, the only update HRT bought was a gurney flap tweak for Monza - even that was pushing the boat out for HRT. Laughing


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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:40 pm

One of my favourite teams, Forti were so far off the pace that they were the reason the 107% rule came in.

I don't really blame HRT for being where they were. They signed up to a budget cap that never happened. Under those rules they'd still be at the back but it wouldn't have been by so much. Also we need to consider Caterham, a team with a lot more budget and more people and better people and yet they've never competed yet with Torro Rosso or Williams the next two teams above them in the championship.

As for your critical of Jordan and Minardi, we've been over that and it's unfair. There have been far worse teams, check out this list http://www.f1rejects.com/teams/index.html

Finally F1 development in season is a new thing. The lotus 72 for example raced for 4 season unchanged and won a championship (or was it 2, I forget)
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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:21 pm

Jordan wasn't always a bad team.... they introduced Michael Schumacher to F1, were frequently on the podium, had a handful of race victories (4 was it?) and Heinz Harald Frentzen almost won a World Championship.... (this is reminding me of "Groundhog Day", I'm sure we recently had this discussion on another thread).... the entity that became Spyker, though, had clearly lost direction... Eddie obviously had his eye on a cushy number being paid by the BBC to talk rubbish on TV...

Minardi wasn't that awe-inspiring, but they finally came good with a bit of Red Bull money, a name change and Sebastian Vettel driving for them....

HRT.... hmmm.... the fact that they arrived the last few seasons with a car that couldn't make it into the 107% timings.... was always going to end in tears. While Virgin/Marussia and Lotus/Caterham at least seemed to have their eyes on the Midfield, you could never really see HRT getting there. And Narain Karthikeyan as a driver didn't help... the fella has now driven for Jordan in their last season AND HRT... I reckon he's cursed... not to mention somewhat SLOW.

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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:45 pm

Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, but I didn’t say that Jordan or Minardi were bad. In fact, I was complimenting them as they were never so far off the pace as HRT were. Jordan and Minardi were proper F1 teams, mostly properly financed and they bought good updates to their cars.

HRT were a tad naïve in believing the budget cap was going to happen. After it was announced, there were immediate doubts about it. If HRT had done their research, they would have known how financially and technically demanding F1 is.

HRT and “Virgin” tried to enter into a championship that didn’t exist, where you can buy an off-the-shelf car and design your car without full facilities.

Caterham have made progress, albeit not enough. Heikki in particular has challenged the Toro Rosso’s for Q2 this season, although I’m not sure whether that’s true progress from Caterham or STR simply underperforming. As you say, cerca, Caterham do have the right facilities and personnel in place. They now need a car to match the team they’ve developed.

However, at least with Caterham, you can see a credible team being made, and they’ve managed to get KERS – something the other two teams haven’t done.

It’s hard to judge Narain Karthikeyan. Yes, he was a back marker at Jordan and HRT, but that was more car-related. He was good in A1GP, winning some races and racing in a gutsy manner. Perhaps the best use of Karthikeyan was pissing off Vettel as a back marker – he deserves praise for that.



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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:48 am

It is surprise they did last as long! They want to try and run a national team.......which doesn't really worked Spain has cero money
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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:21 am

Mobil 1 wrote:
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough, but I didn’t say that Jordan or Minardi were bad. In fact, I was complimenting them as they were never so far off the pace as HRT were. Jordan and Minardi were proper F1 teams, mostly properly financed and they bought good updates to their cars.

With all due respect, it's only in recent years that F1 have forced all these "updates" to happen.

Let's remember that not that many years ago the new Super Aguri team entered F1 in slightly modified "Orange Arrows" cars, which had been bought from Paul Stoddart.

The cars were clearly 5 years old, but they were still legal.

That would not happen these days.

Quote :
HRT were a tad naïve in believing the budget cap was going to happen. After it was announced, there were immediate doubts about it. If HRT had done their research, they would have known how financially and technically demanding F1 is.

More so recently, despite the "headline news" that suggests that F1 is trying to become less expensive to enter.

Quote :
HRT and “Virgin” tried to enter into a championship that didn’t exist, where you can buy an off-the-shelf car and design your car without full facilities.

Which had happened for Super Aguri only a few years before... and Super Aguri didn't actually do THAT badly with their old Arrows cars, did they?

Quote :
Caterham have made progress, albeit not enough. Heikki in particular has challenged the Toro Rosso’s for Q2 this season, although I’m not sure whether that’s true progress from Caterham or STR simply underperforming. As you say, cerca, Caterham do have the right facilities and personnel in place. They now need a car to match the team they’ve developed.

Agree with that.

Quote :
However, at least with Caterham, you can see a credible team being made, and they’ve managed to get KERS – something the other two teams haven’t done.

That is true too, but how F1 can say that they are trying to reduce cost whilst allowing things like KERS and Double-DRS is quite beyond me.

Quote :
It’s hard to judge Narain Karthikeyan. Yes, he was a back marker at Jordan and HRT, but that was more car-related. He was good in A1GP, winning some races and racing in a gutsy manner. Perhaps the best use of Karthikeyan was pissing off Vettel as a back marker – he deserves praise for that.

He was certainly good in A1GP. I think we all enjoyed watching him battle with Robbie Kerr at Brands Hatch for victory all those years ago...

But is he fast enough for F1?!?! I don't know...

It wasn't that many years ago, Sav, that you derided Jenson Button as "Chocolate Button" - he was World Champion within a year.

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PostSubject: Re: Last Grand Prix for HRT?    Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:31 am

In-season aerodynamic and mechanical updates have been happening for many years, I don’t think it’s confined to recent years.

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Which had happened for Super Aguri only a few years before... and Super Aguri didn't actually do THAT badly with their old Arrows cars, did they?

That’s different. The Arrows was built and developed by an F1 team, whereas the 2010 HRT was built by a manufacturer who’s used to making spec chassis’ for one-make series. There is a big difference. Dallara’s car was simply out of date when it was unveiled, with the Arrows, you knew it would be old because buying a previous car was Super Aguri’s intention. When HRT commissioned Dallara to make an F1 car from scratch, I don’t think they expected it to be that awful.

This goes back to the topic of customer cars. There will be some who say that every F1 team must enter the championship with their own chassis, and no previous chassis’. However, the only way that the “off-the-shelf” concept can be sustainable, is for previous year cars to be made available to smaller teams.

Super Aguri in 2007 often embarrassed the main Honda team, because the 2006 Honda was better than the 2007 car which the factory team had developed.

Quote :
He was certainly good in A1GP. I think we all enjoyed watching him battle with Robbie Kerr at Brands Hatch for victory all those years ago...

But is he fast enough for F1?!?! I don't know...

Ah, but were the Jordan or HRT’s faster enough for Karthikeyan? I’m not saying he would be at Alonso’s, Hamilton’s or Vettel’s level, or in fact a very good F1 driver, but in A1GP he showed that given competitive machinery, he can produce victories.

Quote :
“It wasn't that many years ago, Sav, that you derided Jenson Button as "Chocolate Button" - he was World Champion within a year.”

Button is still a bit wet behind the ears. He did win the 2009 title, credit where it’s due, but it was hardly a well-fought season with how dominant the Brawn was until Silverstone. At McLaren, Button moans too much.

“Oh, I lost complete temperature in my tyres, it was very strange” – excuses excuses from chocolate Button. Basically, Button cannot match the relentless speed of Alonso, Hamilton or Vettel. Jenson has occasional mastery, but it’s too occasional. Button is the new David Coulthard of F1 (no offence!), except Button grabbed the title (but even Barrichello almost won the title).

When Hamilton won in Montreal, chocolate Button finished 16th in the same car, and even got passed by the Toro Rosso’s – oops!!! Hamilton was never, ever so far behind in the same car.

Button wants to build McLaren around him, but Button isn’t consistently fast enough. You cannot be a team leader when you haven’t got the stand-out speed. Webber or Massa aren’t team leaders of their respective teams for the same reason.

Imagine Massa asking Luca de Montezemolo to be team leader, instead of Alonso: "Mr Montezemolo, I have won er...Grand's Prix in the past, and have er...improved my results lately - can I take over from Alonso?" Haha!

I predict that even Perez will own Button very soon.


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