HomeHome  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 At last…

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: At last…   Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:02 am

Somebody who’s opinions hold weight has stated the issue of too many junior open wheel series:

Quote :
Motorsport currently has too many junior formulae which are masking the abilities of the best drivers. That is the opinion of former F1 driver Gerhard Berger, now President of the FIA Single Seater Commission. In the view of the Austrian, the system should be updated in order to ensure that the best competitors can truly showcase their talents.

More here: http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/282587/too-many-junior-series-says-berger/

There seems no stand out championship that produces the best F1 drivers anymore. In my opinion, GP2 was the only positive development in junior series. They are a step-up compared to other cars HP and cornering wise. The real issue lies below GP2; the GP3/F3/F2/Auto GP championships.

Saturation is not my only beef. F2, F3 and GP3 are often terribly boring to watch. Most of the cars have too much downforce, F3 cars in particular look nailed to the tarmac with the low HP they have. Either increase the power or cut downforce. So if these new series are also dull, it’s a real mystery how they keep limping along. The spectator areas aren’t exactly packed at these races.

Then there’s Auto GP, using old A1GP cars. It’s a fabulous theory, but boring reality. High powered open wheelers already exist, GP2. I like motor racing, but when a series start up without any real purpose, it puzzles me.

Lets be frank; the junior open wheel market is very niche (like most motorsport), but rather than limping along with no USP – they need to merge or die.

If there was a quality European F3 championship, where there was a clear benchmark, I’d definitely pay to see that.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:20 am

Seriously Gerhand Berger?? He is usually clueless

but in this case is right
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:50 am

Well, at least sections of the motorsports media do!

I think that talent is still clear to see, if one knows what to look for. It just doesn’t make sense to have so many series all offering the same thing.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:01 am

the first 50 minutes of this weeks midweek motorsport is onme long junior formula rant and not for the first time.
Back to top Go down
Duckman
Race Driver
Race Driver


Posts : 513
Join date : 2008-05-09

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:33 am

I don't think gp3 was needed, gp2 was never been a great proving ground for F1 so having a sub series for it is pointless. We do need more than in the past though, there are more paid drivers around than ever and they will always get the seats before talented drivers.
Back to top Go down
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:50 am

do you know how much gp2 costs to do one season?
Back to top Go down
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:02 am

also the ladder needs to be a ladder, Karts, Gp4 (or Renaults or Formula fords) but one of not all and NO MORE SPEC SERIES. Then GP3 or F3 or Formula Mazda, but NO MORE SPEC SERIES. GP2 or F2 or Formula Renault 3.5 but NO MORE SPEC SERIES then Formula one (AND THAT SHOUNDN'T BE A SPEC SERIES EITHER BUT BASICALLY IT IS ONE.

Karts then

F4 should be tube framed not carbon and the most basic wings or no wings, with about 200 to 300 bhp, open tyre rules,open chassis, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F3 should be tube framed not carbon and the most basic wings with a little under body aero and 400 to 500 bhp, open chassis, open tyre rules, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F2 should be Carbon fibre tubs and basic wings with more under body aero (than the GP3) and 700 to 850 bhp, open chassis, open tyre rules, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F1 should be Carbon fibre tubs and simple wings with unlimited underbody aero with 900 to 1100 bhp. Over body aero is restricted but under body is open but with a minimum ride height, open tyres, open fuel etc.

plus published price lists of every part and carbon tubs available for purchase made to spec for privateers to build cars

Now would that work and how as a team manager would you pick it apart. Should there be more steps on the ladder so it takes longer to get to the top? Finally how do you get prize money going back to the teams/drivers?
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:22 am

Jeremy Aardvark wrote:
also the ladder needs to be a ladder, Karts, Gp4 (or Renaults or Formula fords) but one of not all and NO MORE SPEC SERIES. Then GP3 or F3 or Formula Mazda, but NO MORE SPEC SERIES. GP2 or F2 or Formula Renault 3.5 but NO MORE SPEC SERIES then Formula one (AND THAT SHOUNDN'T BE A SPEC SERIES EITHER BUT BASICALLY IT IS ONE.

Karts then

F4 should be tube framed not carbon and the most basic wings or no wings, with about 200 to 300 bhp, open tyre rules,open chassis, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F3 should be tube framed not carbon and the most basic wings with a little under body aero and 400 to 500 bhp, open chassis, open tyre rules, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F2 should be Carbon fibre tubs and basic wings with more under body aero (than the GP3) and 700 to 850 bhp, open chassis, open tyre rules, open fuels, etc but once there up to pace any more development.

F1 should be Carbon fibre tubs and simple wings with unlimited underbody aero with 900 to 1100 bhp. Over body aero is restricted but under body is open but with a minimum ride height, open tyres, open fuel etc.

plus published price lists of every part and carbon tubs available for purchase made to spec for privateers to build cars

Now would that work and how as a team manager would you pick it apart. Should there be more steps on the ladder so it takes longer to get to the top? Finally how do you get prize money going back to the teams/drivers?

Crickey Moses, you have some….errr…let’s say ambitious ideas there. What a Face

Horsepower, chassis and downforce wise, I agree with you. However, tyre wars provided no additional entertainment in F1, it made elite teams become even more elite with special tyres being tailored for specific cars. Michelin were producing 120 compounds in total, which was insane. I like the idea of an open tyre formula, but in practice, its way too costly and midfield/upcoming teams stay uncompetitive.

As an example, Jordan never got the same Bridgestone tyres as Ferrari did. There could be a regulated system, but I fear it would be messy, complex and just an unneeded headache.

A team like Sauber can now compete with bigger teams with bigger budgets, due to them understanding the Pirelli tyres and their car operating them effectively. If you get rid of that equal rubber, it will be a case of the haves and have-nots. One could argue we have that now, but the gap between front-running and midfield teams would vastly increase. When I’m watching any race, I really don’t care what rubber the cars are running on, as long as there is competitive, close racing and not massive gaps between car.

I want to know how fast Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel can drive, not which tyre maker produces the fastest tyres.

With junior formulas, there wouldn’t be tyre wars because no tyre makers would be interested. Things like F3, F2 etc get little coverage as it is; increasing costs even further would be a sure way of doing bust. With junior racing in particular, it’s imperative that the best driving talent gets seen – not the best tyres.

Jeremy Aardvark wrote:
do you know how much gp2 costs to do one season?

Figures published in Autosport stated at least £2 million.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:24 am

Quote :
I don't think gp3 was needed, gp2 was never been a great proving ground for F1 so having a sub series for it is pointless. We do need more than in the past though, there are more paid drivers around than ever and they will always get the seats before talented drivers.

GP3 fails to interest me. Whereas GP2 cars are loud and the racing is intense, GP3 cars sound dreadful, look too slow and produce snoozy races. I hear that GP3 cars are getting 400 bhp next year, which will be a welcome step.

GP2 has been hit and miss for producing solid F1 drivers, but the HP and chassis' have been a step-up compared to F3000.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:01 am

yes one year of gp2 costs (i heard) 2.1 million quid which is insane.

What i'd like to see is not a tyre war, more a you can buy any brand you like. How you stop the people trying to build better tyres i'm not sure.

atm the fia take all the money from Pirelli and the teams don't get any (f1 they do thanks to the concord agreement) but in gp2 and f3 and f2 and etc, etc ,etc. they get none of it.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:07 am

I suppose pay drivers inflate the market, as the pay masters of these drivers can wave the biggest cheques around. Junior open wheel teams are sadly not cash-rich, so they haven’t got much choice.

Generally though, GP2 teams are just concentrating on surviving rather than paying a different tyre maker for better compounds. I agree though that junior teams should get help with the cost of tyres.

I just don’t like open tyre formulas, tbh. They are very costly for no reason and it becomes a question of who has the most money. Money always talks, but tyres are such a huge area to gain speed, it just makes the elite more elite.

With the Bridgestone/Michelin tyres, I never found that very interesting. It never really contributed to the show; instead, it created big snoozy gaps between cars. Not even the same tyre maker supplied the same tyres – it was a spending joke.

Tyres to me just aren’t that important. I really couldn’t care less about having a variety of rubber. Close, hard racing is what makes people watch racing – not branding on sidewalls.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:58 am

None of the good junior formula teams is poor.

It's not about a tyre war. That is pointless.

You need something different. When the British rally championship went to Pirelli as a one make tyre supplier the budget for the small and private teams doubled. Instead of getting free stuff from OEM's or at least could buy cheap sets from whoever they want they had to pay pirelli's higher price.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:50 pm

I didn't say poor, just haven't got excess money to bribe a new maker to build better tyres.

I see what you're saying, I just think it would be hard to police and control. F1 more than anything.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:04 am

Mobil 1 wrote:
I didn't say poor, just haven't got excess money to bribe a new maker to build better tyres.

I see what you're saying, I just think it would be hard to police and control. F1 more than anything.

that is the problem, policing it is very hard.
Back to top Go down
Big-AL
Admin
Admin
avatar

Posts : 4007
Join date : 2008-04-14
Age : 40

PostSubject: Re: At last…   Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:20 am

I agree i think the pay drivers have a lot to answer for, but as long as they are also in F1 nothing will change.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: At last…   

Back to top Go down
 
At last…
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
 :: Single Seater Racing :: Formula One-
Jump to: