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 Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?

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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:53 am

the diesel issue at LeMans was a waste of time i think, yes the mpg increased but as both teams were using it it cancelled out the advantage & left the petrol cars behind.

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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:55 am

modifing a road car is actually massively expensive (not my opinion), I shared yours, that actually it's cheap. But apparently it's not, and if I could remember why i'd post it here.

WRC does race in slightly more relevant markets, that much is true. But the big gatherings bit simple isn't the case. In wlaes they actively close the roads and try and stop people getting to the stages. Where do you think the side by side special stages came from?


and Porsche won't be using batteries, they will be using the flybrid system.
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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:58 am

what about Peugeot racing in France, it there biggest race the french have and Peugeots biggest market, will except where I live. Lots of crappy Peugeots here for some odd reason.
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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:13 am

There's always an advert at the top of the page, so looking at another thread the advert at the top was Peugeot, fuel econemy something something
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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:24 am

Mobil 1 wrote:
Toyota hate diesel, so they’ll be producing great petrol hybrids. Porsche will use a V8 petrol with batteries to tie in with the 918.

i didn't say toyota like diesel did i? if you listening to midweek motorsport. they were talking about how much this effects everyone like toyota. manufacturers adveristing they won and battle against these companies and the WEC peugeot were the one pushing for the series.

Mobil 1 wrote:

Honda will be irrelevant in LMP1, it’s not a full blown effort from them. The last time I checked, PSA decided to pull out of prototype racing and they’re in Monte Carlo right now racing in WRC.

i heard that honda maybe making a comeback heard it a few times its either honda or nissan the talk was about? CT you must of heard the same on the podcasts?

I didn't say they were going to pull out now! did i? i said in the near future! if PSA are really struggling. motor sport is expensive do you expect them to continue!

its an automatic thing CT. its when ever you search or looked at and it comes up with an advisement. i got one for easy jet as i have been looking at events to go in the summer.


Last edited by MotorracingP on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:58 am

Mobil 1 wrote:
I think the rallying program will stay because Citroen is so dominant in WRC, if they were struggling then rallying would have been scrapped in a heartbeat. Plus, the costs of modifying a DS3 must be less than creating a prototype from scratch, especially with the amount of R&D that such a project needs with the diesel/hybrid engine. The WRC DS3 uses pretty conventional underpinnings with an engine that was derived from their road car – that keeps costs reasonable.

Another thing, is that the WEC schedule has a few races that PSA don’t have a presence in or barley any. The USA and Bahrain are not markets of interest to PSA, whereas the vast majority of rounds for WRC are important markets for Citroen. WRC rounds have big gatherings, despite the crap TV coverage – so the Citroen brand is present in a lot of their biggest markets.

For once, Citroen actually decided to use its rallying heritage to market road cars. The “DS3 Racing” street car was very popular. The prototype program cannot easily be related to PSA’s road cars like rally cars can.

That's probably one of the major areas where a series like the WRC has an edge over the LMP1 prototypes: the cars they race, look like cars.

LMP1 cars are essentially F1 cars with bodywork: Average Joe can't go buy an Audi R18 or a Peugeot 908 because they're not built for off-track purposes, but he can easily buy a Citroen DS3, Ford Fiesta or MINI Countryman if he wanted.

Because they look like road cars (albeit underneath sharing pretty much nothing with their road-going counterparts), the public can relate to them more, whereas Audi and Peugeot in LMP1 rely on the strength of the brand to get across to the public. Citroen are booming because they keep racking up the wins and titles, and car sales are good because the cars are reliable and well built. Same with Audi. More wins, more sales. The problem with Peugeot is the opposite of this.

Another problem is that Average Joe would've really only heard of one sportscar racing event more than the rest in the world combined: the Le Mans 24hrs. You only have to look at Audi to see what winning that event has done for their fortunes. Peugeot may have won races against Audi in Europe and across the world, as well claiming the ILMC title last year, but ultimately they raced in countries where there's no real market to exploit. And with the biggest sportscar race on their doorstep, to win it only 3 times (1992, 1993, 2009) compared to Audi's 10 (2000 - 2002, 2004 - 2008, 2010, 2011), it adds up to a program that while is successful elsewhere in the world, doesn't quite cut it where it matters most.

If Peugeot had Audi's Le Mans success, we probably wouldn't have seen them pulled the plug on the 908.


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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:32 am

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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:34 pm

The vast majority of what appears there isn't stuff I look at... I'm sad to here it's automatic.

If jrm arn't a works blessed team at least I'd be very surprised. With David brabham, can't remember and Karen chandok in the car, and it was hugely fast at Sebring last year.
There is still a very strong rumour that there will be anothe Japanese manufacturer but I suspect it'll be pushed back to 2014 now
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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:08 am

I do agree with CJ that continuous racing success tends to be favourably looked upon in any company car board. You just need to look at the original Subaru Impreza and how the WRC programme created a penuche for gold wheels and bright blue paintwork amongst road car owners. The car got its image from motor racing – so motor racing can be beneficial for car makers if their road cars are marketed in the right way.

Le Mans is in no way easy for VAG, but one must look at the lack of competition they’ve had for over ten years now. But, they keep on winning – and nobody wants to quit at something they are good at. I believe that’s the case with Citroen, they clearly have a special edge in WRC and they know that cannot necessarily be recreated.

Quote :
LMP1 cars are essentially F1 cars with bodywork:

I’ve long thought that, thus why it’s completely incorrect to call prototypes “sportscars”. No they are not – GT cars are “sportscars”. Take away the bodywork of a prototype and you have a glorified open wheel car – and nobody would call an open wheel car a “sportscar”. Now that’s not a criticism of prototypes, but its rather the language that is used to describe them.

Davemk8 wrote:
modifing a road car is actually massively expensive (not my opinion), I shared yours, that actually it's cheap. But apparently it's not, and if I could remember why i'd post it here.
WRC does race in slightly more relevant markets, that much is true. But the big gatherings bit simple isn't the case. In wlaes they actively close the roads and try and stop people getting to the stages. Where do you think the side by side special stages came from?
and Porsche won't be using batteries, they will be using the flybrid system.

Absolutely, there is no doubt modifying road cars is expensive, motor racing at a top level like WRC will always be expensive. But it’s all relative, and my point was that the prototype programme was more expensive than the WRC programme. Building a whole new car from scratch with unknown technology in racing, with diesel and hybrid would have demanded a huge amount of R&D – driving up costs.

With the DS3, all its underpinnings and drivetrain are known by Citroen – especially as things like the safety cell would have been carried over from the C4. The WRC car is simpler and less complex than the 908, without such sophisticated electronics – again keeping costs lower. In Spain, Sardinia, Finland, Japan and other countries – there are huge gatherings judging from the crowds on the sides. In a lot of nations, rallying is a culture and stages are near to residents.

Quote :
i didn't say toyota like diesel did i?

I didn’t say you did. I was merely stating what Toyota’s drivetrain preference is, totally unrelated to what you think I said.

Quote :
I didn't say they were going to pull out now! did i?

Again, you seem to confuse yourself.

Quote :
i said in the near future!

Really? You originally said:

Quote :
i think they will drop WRC

I don’t see anything about “near future” there, if that’s you meant – then fine. But you didn’t say that originally – that’s merely factual. It was simply a miscommunication it seems.

I understand your point about all motor racing being expensive, but when a company engages in multiple racing activities – some activity almost always gets prioritised over others. And this is what has happened with PSA, it happened with Honda in 2008 as well. They dropped F1 but retained Super GT.

Separately, the ACO or FIA cannot be expected to tailor a championship for PSA, which would be ridiculous. But, racing in the USA and Bahrain is completely useless for Citroen/Peugeot – and that’s just a waste of money for the group. On top of high R&D costs and little benefit to road car sales, racing in useless markets is a triple whammy.

PSA’s obsession about pleasing their French audience is part of their problem, they need to wake up and chase other much more lucrative markets. The Americans, Germans and Japanese are seizing emerging markets with great success – the French auto makers are standing still in comparison. An even more basic problem, is that the French failed to globalise like others did in the 1960’s and 70’s, and it’s baffling.

Fiat is lucky they got Chrysler, because they would have suffered the same problem otherwise.

I think Peugeot might have scrapped their prototype programme a few years ago, if it wasn’t for the “scrappage scheme” in European markets that artificially propped up car sales. Since it ended, PSA has come back to planet earth with their weak European sales and the real extent of the economic woes in the EU have hit hard. If that “scrappage scheme” hadn’t of existed, PSA’s situation would be even more dire than it is now.


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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:45 am

Racing cars especially prototype will always be similar, but basically a formula is very inefficient aerodynamically because they creat such massive turbulence, if f1 cars had the body work of a sportscar and the aero of an f1 car then f1 cars would be alot faster.

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PostSubject: Re: Peugeot’s 2012 Program in trouble?   Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:56 pm

Davemk8 wrote:
Racing cars especially prototype will always be similar, but basically a formula is very inefficient aerodynamically because they creat such massive turbulence, if f1 cars had the body work of a sportscar and the aero of an f1 car then f1 cars would be alot faster.


Quite right. The aerodynamic turbulence over the exposed wheels of an F1 car is one of the biggest sources of drag on an F1 car. With Adrian Newey’s Red Bull X1 creation from Gran Turismo 5, a car designed without any limits, it has wheel covers to optimise the airflow and cut the level of drag. An LMP1 prototype does have a bit too much bodywork around the rear to be almost perfectly drag efficient, but the concept of having bodywork over the wheels is quite correct.

I like the danger that exposed wheels present, but there is no doubt it slows open wheel cars in a straight line. There is also the question of weight too with an LM prototype, bodywork doesn't weigh nothing sadly.

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