HomeHome  RegisterRegister  Log inLog in  

Share | 
 

 Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:55 am

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95688

Alex nails exactly whats wrong with indycar and all all ALL ALL ALL of motorsport

i'm tempted to post it in ever section it's that important.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:17 am

Quote :
You would let it slide until the downforce wasn't yet too low in a way that penalises turn speed too much.

"It was drift driving, and tyre degradation was an important parameter. If a driver crashed against the wall, it was usually his own mistake after he had underestimated these factors.

"Nowadays, instead, driving has become too easy. At turn entry, mid turn, and turn exit, the car is attached to the road surface. In the name of safety - in principle it was even right - the intention was to slow down the cars by giving them an exaggerated amount of downforce, and therefore high drag.

Bang on. Where he talks about the car sliding when too much speed is carried into a corner, that is what happens in NASCAR. Around the same Las Vegas track, NASCAR's run wide open on the front and back straights, and the drivers lift off the throttle in corners and sometimes brake. That to me is more pure racing, running 100 % full throttle is utterly tedious to watch and dangerous. Ironically, real entertainment and safety go hand-in-hand in this example.

NASCAR is obviously very different to IndyCar, so transferring one concept to the other is difficult. But, the combination of almost 900 bhp and very little downforce works brilliantly.

Pack racing is not the only problem, take the last IndyCar around in Kentucky as a prime example. Ed Carpenter and Franchitti ran side-by-side, full throttle for endless laps - just where is the finesse or excitement in that? I sound like a broken record, but if drivers had to blend off the throttle, it would give them more options about how to race and would create variety on 1.5 mile ovals. At the moment, the drivers only have the option of running wide open or they'll get run over from behind.

In an ideal world, I'd just scrap 1.5 - 2.0 mile high banked ovals and just have short tracks and Indianapolis for IndyCar. Sadly, very few realistic short tracks exist for IndyCar - Loudon and Milwaukee are the only ones.

Downforce is a problem for many motorsport categories; but at least in F1, prototype racing etc the drivers actually lift off the throttle and have to brake - requiring finesse.



_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:30 am



Mobil 1 wrote:

Bang on. Where he talks about the car sliding when too much speed is carried into a corner, that is what happens in NASCAR. Around the same Las Vegas track, NASCAR's run wide open on the front and back straights, and the drivers lift off the throttle in corners and sometimes brake. That to me is more pure racing, running 100 % full throttle is utterly tedious to watch and dangerous. Ironically, real entertainment and safety go hand-in-hand in this example.

YES

Mobil 1 wrote:

NASCAR is obviously very different to IndyCar, so transferring one concept to the other is difficult. But, the combination of almost 900 bhp and very little downforce works brilliantly.

it is possible

Mobil 1 wrote:

Pack racing is not the only problem, take the last IndyCar around in Kentucky as a prime example. Ed Carpenter and Franchitti ran side-by-side, full throttle for endless laps - just where is the finesse or excitement in that? I sound like a broken record, but if drivers had to blend off the throttle, it would give them more options about how to race and would create variety on 1.5 mile ovals. At the moment, the drivers only have the option of running wide open or they'll get run over from behind.

yes

Mobil 1 wrote:

In an ideal world, I'd just scrap 1.5 - 2.0 mile high banked ovals and just have short tracks and Indianapolis for IndyCar. Sadly, very few realistic short tracks exist for IndyCar - Loudon and Milwaukee are the only ones.


More power than downforce ( a lot more power and a lot less downforce) and some mile and half ovals are good

Mobil 1 wrote:

Downforce is a problem for many motorsport categories; but at least in F1, prototype racing etc the drivers actually lift off the throttle and have to brake - requiring finesse.

The 2 audi crashes at le mans were caused by the same problem. The current lmp cars have far too much downforce and not enough power. And it means that can't overtake slower cars on the straights have to do it in the braking zones, that also causes crahes.
The GTE cars have far too much downforces as well.

F has the same awful formula of too much downforce not enough power, same for f3, renault 3.5 by nissan, renault megane trophy has as well, etc etc
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:52 am

The Peugeot 908 has 650 bhp according to the figure on Gran Turismo, combined with traction control - they probably do need more BHP.


_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:36 am

supposedly lmp1 cars limited to about 600 bhp but the peugeot 908 hdi fap had about 750 to 800 bhp

i consider 900 bhp the minimum for all top level motorsport. F1, LMP1, indycar, nascar, wrc, etc

about 700 bhp for second level motorsports lmp2, gp2, gt1 (no defunkt), indy lights, nationwide, irc, world series by renault 3.5 powered by nissan, f2, v8 supercar, etc

500 to 550 bhp for gp3, f3, gt2(gte), gt3, wtcc, btcc, stcc, atcc, etc

but crucially they all need very limited wings, a single flat plain only. Maybe some underbody aero and the biggest rear tyres seen since the 1970's
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:30 am

I like it a lot, that's a good guide to different motorsport's. But, 900 bhp for WRC cars? Holy cow, I thought Group B cars were scary... What a Face

You must agree though, that getting rid of traction control for LMP1 cars would be a good start. I thought that about F1 as well.

NASCAR already fulfills your requirements. Cup cars have close to 900 bhp and Nationwide cars have 700 bhp.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:40 am

Yep, lmp1 cars don't neEd traction control
Back to top Go down
MotorracingP
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9661
Join date : 2008-04-18
Age : 27
Location : Last seen lurking about in the Shadows

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:58 am

do remember the HPD cars at paul ricard been restricted so heavily the GTE were over taking them(well what was left of the field).....
Back to top Go down
http://twitter.com/MotorracingP
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:14 am

Realistically, all IndyCar can hope for is to make the 1.5 mile oval races more interesting. I really would like more flatter, one mile ovals like Phoenix and Richmond Ė but I donít see that happening. If IndyCar can make the cars so powerful that drivers are forced to lift off the throttle on 1.5 mile tracks, then that would be good enough.

Although, I read that getting more than 800 bhp from the new V6ís is difficult without sacrificing reliability Ė boo. Well, cut downforce then. Also, the oval Firestone tyres donít seem to degrade much, also allowing drivers to run flat out from start to finish of a stint Ė like last yearís Bridgestone F1 tyres. If drivers had more degradation, without the risk of blow outs (like this yearís Pirelli F1 tyres) Ė drivers might have to blend off the throttle to avoid losing time. That, combined with less downforce would bring back finesse and driver input that isnít apparent now.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sun Oct 30, 2011 4:00 am

the lower downforce should enforce braking into corners. F1 only needs those tyre because they cars have too much downforce, but they don't work because we just see everyone drive around until they go off and pit for newer ones making them pointless really.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:11 am

Back to oval discussion, my favourite oval is Martinsville in Virginia. It's the only oval that has a road course technique of slow in, fast out of a corner. The drivers have to save the brakes, carefully get back to the throttle and not carry too much speed into the corners. Because it's a flat track, the passing has to be done on the inside - only having one racing groove is so similar to a road course too.

An oval with longer straights and the tight turns of Martinsville would be perfect for IndyCar.


_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:20 pm

2 hairpins and a mile of stright in each direction, i've been dreaming of such a thing for a while

abit like avus used to be

Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:34 am

A great article here on why more 1 mile tracks need to return:
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-1995-cart-oval-calendar-worth-revisiting

The point about running on NASCAR-tailoured 1.5 mile ovals is very good. And also, why the 1.5 mile tracks are not the problem - it's the cars themselves. I said that before too.


_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:42 pm

thats Marshall Pruett for you

I don't believe it's the cars, more that it's the amout of downforce they have to run. But thats sort of the same thing.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:58 am

I don't think that the outgoing car has that much downforce, compared to European open wheel cars. For bigger ovals, it's front and rear wings are very flat for low drag. But because open wheel cars naturally produce a lot of downforce and are so light, compared to a stock car, they can easily run wide open for a whole lap.

As we've discussed, increase the HP and then let's see how easy it is to run wide open in the corners....

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Cerca Trova
Team Principal
Team Principal
avatar

Posts : 9036
Join date : 2008-04-17
Location : Oubliette

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:01 pm

actually they do produce a lot of downforce comapred to the wings on the 2011 car compared to the 1995 cart cars.

if you reread the original artical from alex zanardi

Quote :
"At the beginning of 1998, the Handford wing was introduced in our series. It was a sort of an L-shaped Gurney flap attached backwards, and it was supposed to slow down the cars by generating drag. After the first race I, Michael Andretti and Greg Moore were literally assaulted by enthusiastic journalists who would say what a great race it was, what spectacle.

"We looked at each other and, without having agreed beforehand, we replied simultaneously: 'Have you seen the same race as us?'

"For us it had been crap: with the Handford you couldn't open up a gap to your rival anymore.

"Our job wasn't to race anymore, it was to wait to catch the final slipstream. No more talent, just strategy and that's it. In the long term, this has made the Indy audience fall out of love too.

and

Quote :
"Nowadays, instead, driving has become too easy. At turn entry, mid turn, and turn exit, the car is attached to the road surface. In the name of safety - in principle it was even right - the intention was to slow down the cars by giving them an exaggerated amount of downforce, and therefore high drag.

"The result was that, in order to find speed, you now see set-ups with the front being 7cm higher than the rear to lessen the wing's influence! This is nonsense, but it's a necessity to beat the stop watch."

normally you set the rake of a car forwards so the from it lower than the back, it helps with handling amoungst other things, But usually not much maybe 2 to 3 centimetres at the very most.

The 2011 indycar was being run with the back 7 centimetres lower than the front is very wrong. YOu can't see the extra downforce but it's there.


And they need more power.
Back to top Go down
Petronas Syntium
The Guvenor!
The Guvenor!
avatar

Posts : 17945
Join date : 2008-04-12

PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:30 am

To me, the real test of downforce is on a road course, not on an oval. IndyCar's are pathetic on road courses, they were slower than Formula Nippon cars at Motegi and are barley faster than LMP2 cars. GP2 cars are quicker than IndyCar's FFS. Champ Car's looked so much "racier" on road courses.

When I look at an IndyCar (existing), it looks to have little downforce. That may not be the case, but for me the lack of power is the real issue. It doesn't take a lot for a 650 bhp car with front/rear wings to go flat out on a 1.5 oval. 650 bhp is pathetic, even Champ Cars had 100 bhp more.

Give them more power, then the entry speeds into corners will be colossal - forcing them to crack the throttle. But really, cutting downforce and increasing power would be the perfect deal. Sadly, I don't think downforce will be cut, but increasing power from turbo units is a lot easier than from NA units.

_________________

Back to top Go down
http://racing.forumotion.co.uk
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash   

Back to top Go down
 
Alex Zanardi's thought's on indycar and the Wheldon crash
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1
 Similar topics
-
» 49 Page Wheldon Crash Report Released
» Alex Zanardi repeats as Paralympic Champion
» chase campbell st mikes and alex arthur west hill
» Swing thought for driver and irons
» CUMBRIA LEFT ARM SUPERMATCH, CHRIS RIMMER V ALEX THE AGGRESSOR

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
 :: All other motorsport :: American racing-
Jump to: