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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:07 am

There's a lot of banking at this particular track, which induces this relentless three-wide racing even more than at other 1.5 mile ovals. IndyCar could scrap going to 1.5 mile tracks all together without much loss. The crowds which turn up are pathetic and the risk is undeniably too high, when you saw how they were racing today - it looked worrying even before the accident.

You don't get this pack racing at smaller ovals such as Loudon and the Milwaukee Mile, as they require the drivers to lift out of the throttle and have more driver input. They are far more interesting to watch too.

Yes, accidents happen - but far too many fatal and terrible ones have occurred on 1.5 - 2 mile ovals. Again, RIP Dan Wheldon. Crying or Very sad

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:22 am



RIP Dan Wheldon Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

looking at that video ashley judd set me off again Smile Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:32 am

A fitting tribute there. Cool

IndyCar is returning to the Auto Club Speedway in Fontana next year, another wide and open two mile track. Rolling Eyes

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:43 am

very nice tribute there.

I think it will be sorted out. the crashes indy car has are massive people get seriously injured and now life has been lost come on. in indy car you have chance of getting flip up side down or been smashed into a catching fencing or both.

lets see what happens.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:02 am

There are new safer cars being used from next year, ones that Dan helped develop & test, he wouldn't want Indy Car to change dramatically because of what happened, motor racing is dangerous it always has been & always will be.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:49 pm

Shocking news, and that onboard suggests that Dan may have suffered the same fate as Henry Surtees...

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:54 pm

the safer barrier is good, if the new cars stops them flying from wheels to wheel contatc thats good too. But the next step is replacing the catch fence with something more suitable
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:35 am

R I P Dan Wheldon. I feel for all his family and friends. It's a reality check !!!!!! motor sport is very Dangerous.
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:29 am

A true hero lost to the world of motorsport. Crying or Very sad

RIP Dan.

All thoughts and condolences go out to his family and friends.



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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:04 am

Heard new of his accident last night, then waited up for news on him, praying he might get through. Like everyone else, I'm devastated by this. Wheldon was a truly excellent driver, a real oval specialist and a hero of the "classic" mould. Indycar and motorsport on the whole will be a worse place without him. As a Brit, I feel tremendously proud that he was "one of ours". Never to be forgotten.
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:22 am

I heard about it last night through Paul and others on Facebook putting about it, I hoped he'd be ok but having watched the crash on the news this morning and it said he had died it was a shock its just so stupid that IndyCar has always been like this with its crashes but it comes to a death and then tthe rules will proberly change now and that to me is really sad that it took this for them to realise


R.I.P Dan you'll be missed
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:32 am

cerca trova wrote:
the safer barrier is good, if the new cars stops them flying from wheels to wheel contatc thats good too. But the next step is replacing the catch fence with something more suitable

I totally agree, the safer barrier would have dissipated a lot of energy and would have softened the hit. The catch fencing caught the cars suddenly like a web, the deceleration would have been colossal.

Iíve read a lot of theories; the most common one is that there were too many cars - eh? These multiple car pile ups have occurred with just a 20 car field, at Michigan International Speedway a while ago. Kenny Brack went flying into catch fencing at Texas, with Briscoe being the only other car involved.

This type of side-by-side racing isnít even that interesting, itís hard for a driver to break away from a pack and they just run nose-to-tail relentlessly. That to me isnít real racing, racing at Indianapolis is a lot better because itís a flatter track Ė meaning running side-by-side continuously is difficult.

Btw, welcome back laker. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:01 am

--paddy-- wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn08nh7zoto

At 3:55 they show Wheldon's car onboard

I think that section of onboard is from Will Power's car - as it stayed flat in the air until it met the wall before rolling. The sheer scale of the accident was just surreal - like it's been said there have been multi-car accidents before but so see four cars getting airborne three of them rolling as well - the air time Power had was truly disturbing.

It is a truly sad loss to the world of motor-sports and a horrific way to send off the old Dallara chassis, from what the replays showed Dan hit the catch-fencing cockpit first, and considering the impact hitting the catch-fencing has on cars that do strike it - as shown by the accidents of Brack and Conway the fences act almost like a cheese grater on the cars when a car impacts in that way Dan's did we know the consequences. Hopefully the new chassis wouldn't get into the catch-fencing with the rear wheel guards so to limit front to rear wheel contact.

R.I.P Dan Wheldon Sad



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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:11 am

mazzaf1 wrote:
--paddy-- wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn08nh7zoto

At 3:55 they show Wheldon's car onboard

- as shown by the accidents of Brack and Conway the fences act almost like a cheese grater on the cars when a car impacts in that way Dan's did we know the consequences.



That's a great description of it, maybe the catch fencing could be replaced by something similar to the safer barrier construction where there are no grandstands? Frankly, racing at 1.5 mile high banked ovals is boring to watch anyway - I'd just scrap those circuits.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:31 am

mazzaf1 wrote:
--paddy-- wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn08nh7zoto

At 3:55 they show Wheldon's car onboard

I think that section of onboard is from Will Power's car - as it stayed flat in the air until it met the wall before rolling. The sheer scale of the accident was just surreal - like it's been said there have been multi-car accidents before but so see four cars getting airborne three of them rolling as well - the air time Power had was truly disturbing.

It is a truly sad loss to the world of motor-sports and a horrific way to send off the old Dallara chassis, from what the replays showed Dan hit the catch-fencing cockpit first, and considering the impact hitting the catch-fencing has on cars that do strike it - as shown by the accidents of Brack and Conway the fences act almost like a cheese grater on the cars when a car impacts in that way Dan's did we know the consequences. Hopefully the new chassis wouldn't get into the catch-fencing with the rear wheel guards so to limit front to rear wheel contact.

R.I.P Dan Wheldon Sad




I think it is Will cars with 12 on it.

its just horrible crash. today has been quite tough most of the day till 12pm i was in bed just Fooked i was. but i can't belive he has gone Sad

i don't know what needs to be done maybe not run on that style of oval or just maybe have one of them but it was 220MPH is scary Sh\T

here is indycar tribute slight different with 3 interviews on it!
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:20 am

I'd be replacing the catch fencing with something like clear polycarbonate
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:04 pm

Mobil 1 wrote:
cerca trova wrote:
the safer barrier is good, if the new cars stops them flying from wheels to wheel contatc thats good too. But the next step is replacing the catch fence with something more suitable

I totally agree, the safer barrier would have dissipated a lot of energy and would have softened the hit. The catch fencing caught the cars suddenly like a web, the deceleration would have been colossal.

Iíve read a lot of theories; the most common one is that there were too many cars - eh? These multiple car pile ups have occurred with just a 20 car field, at Michigan International Speedway a while ago. Kenny Brack went flying into catch fencing at Texas, with Briscoe being the only other car involved.

This type of side-by-side racing isnít even that interesting, itís hard for a driver to break away from a pack and they just run nose-to-tail relentlessly. That to me isnít real racing, racing at Indianapolis is a lot better because itís a flatter track Ė meaning running side-by-side continuously is difficult.

Btw, welcome back laker. Smile
Thanks. Things like this happen which just make you want to understand, and grieve with others who feel the same.

I really felt this one. I mean, it's always tragic whenever any driver/bike rider is killed but somehow the circumstances and size of the loss just seems more evident here. In accidents where other drivers have lost their lives, there's always been the feeling that it was either THEIR car or THEIR mistake - you could attribute it directly to them or their team. Even Senna's accident(which is the other accident which hit me to this level) could be put to either his car or his mistake, depending on his opinion. (My personal view is "mistake" for the record, but I understand some others differ and we will never conclusively know).

But with Wheldon's he was simply a victim of circumtance and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He made no mistakes, his car performed perfectly, he just happened to get caught up in someone else's accident to tragic consequences. So I guess the loss feels even more "unfair" than in previous cases.

It's been interesting who hear/read everyone's views. Personally, I found yesterday too early to comment but I'm a bit more with it today. I remember having a conversation on here a year or two where I argued that fear was a crucial part of F1 and that it should be a dangerous sport as otherwise drivers become too complacent in their attitudes and start taking daft risks. Yes we all want drivers to attack but there is a very fine line between attacking driving and wreckless driving. Therefore, I personally am of the belief that the drivers further forward who had the intial coming together have alot to answer for.

The SAFER barrier has been a great innovation. Paul Tracy's comments re: catch fencing are quite interesting. But I think Sav's point about the circuits is quite a good one. Running flat out round the whole circuit encourages drivers to "zone out" and try to gain an advantage by other means(like nascar style intimidation and running closer to each other) as all cars go the same speed. I always preferred Champ Cars to IRL back in the day(late 90s/early 00s) as I always felt the cars made the drivers drive more by making them lift off into corners. I remember going to Chicago Motor Speedway in 99 and it was a cracking race with accidents, but they were always at controlled speeds. The same with Milwaukee, New Hampshire etc. Even Rockingham and Lausitzring were semi-sensible. But this blind flat-out racing doesn't wash with me. I don't like it. Fontana, Michigan and any 1.5m+ size circuit without four defined turns like Indianapolis are not worthy of holding indycar races any more in my opinion. Constant side-by-side racing is not what single-seater racing should be about.

It's been heartwarming to see the reaction in the media. A relatively small number of people in Britain not interested in racing seemed to know Dan Wheldon but the size of reaction has been huge.

Anyway, motor racing must move on and learn and adapt. But it must not forget. He was a great driver and a massive star.
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:39 am

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:52 am

Quote :
Dallara to name 2012 IndyCar in honour of Dan Wheldon

Dallara's 2012 IndyCar chassis will be named in honour of Dan Wheldon, the Italian racing car constructor has confirmed.

Wheldon, who died from head injuries sustained in a 15-car pile-up at the IndyCar season finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway last Sunday, had conducted all the testing of the new-for-2012 car during the second half of this year
full story > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95505

nice thought, however the ironic thing about the 'new' car is that if it was currently in use the accident that claimed Dan's life would have been stopped by the rear wheel guard, this would have stopped the initial accident.

racing is always going to be dangerous, no matter what people say or do, i don't think running flat-out is a bad thing really, the problem was that there were to many cars on a track that wasn't designed for it, i have said before that the walls should have some layer of absorbing material on them to help cushion any impact, the only issue with this is that if there is a impact how easy is it to replace a section.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:58 am

Another aspect to IndyCar racing on 1.5 mile ovals, is that over the years places like Texas and Las Vegas Motor Speedway have been tailoured to NASCAR. Las Vegas was a much flatter race track when it got opened; NASCAR wanted more progressive banking to aid overtaking. But of course, these IndyCarís are so light and have so much downforce Ė the last thing they need is high banking. That is partially what makes this four-wide racing so common.

To think that IndyCar wanted non-IndyCar drivers to enter the Las Vegas race, guys like Petter Solberg and Travis Pastrana. Yikes, even more drivers not knowing how to drive in a pack at 220 mph Ė the thought is alarming.

Big-AL wrote:
Quote :
Dallara to name 2012 IndyCar in honour of Dan Wheldon

Dallara's 2012 IndyCar chassis will be named in honour of Dan Wheldon, the Italian racing car constructor has confirmed.

Wheldon, who died from head injuries sustained in a 15-car pile-up at the IndyCar season finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway last Sunday, had conducted all the testing of the new-for-2012 car during the second half of this year
full story > http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/95505

the problem was that there were to many cars on a track that wasn't designed for it, i have said before that the walls should have some layer of absorbing material on them to help cushion any impact, the only issue with this is that if there is a impact how easy is it to replace a section.

Las Vegas Motor Speedway has hosted NASCAR races with 43 car fields since 1998, and a fatality or injury has never occurred. The track has the same safety standards as other 1.5 mile ovals, like Texas, Atlanta and Charlotte Motor Speedway. There are wide aprons on the inside of the track in case accidents occur. And because of the nature of ovals, itís impossible to add run off area to the outside of the circuit.

Itís not like Las Vegas is a one mile oval with tight turns and little run off on the inside, there was adequate room for 34 cars. Where the track is unsuitable for IndyCar, is the level of progressive banking Ė thatís also the case at Texas. The style of racing and the overly aggressive driving of certain participants is also what caused this wreck.

Run these cars at flatter ovals like Indianapolis, Loudon, Milwaukee or Phoenix Ė you wonít get this relentless side-by-side racing.



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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:58 am

Laker wrote:
Mobil 1 wrote:
cerca trova wrote:
the safer barrier is good, if the new cars stops them flying from wheels to wheel contatc thats good too. But the next step is replacing the catch fence with something more suitable

I totally agree, the safer barrier would have dissipated a lot of energy and would have softened the hit. The catch fencing caught the cars suddenly like a web, the deceleration would have been colossal.

Iíve read a lot of theories; the most common one is that there were too many cars - eh? These multiple car pile ups have occurred with just a 20 car field, at Michigan International Speedway a while ago. Kenny Brack went flying into catch fencing at Texas, with Briscoe being the only other car involved.

This type of side-by-side racing isnít even that interesting, itís hard for a driver to break away from a pack and they just run nose-to-tail relentlessly. That to me isnít real racing, racing at Indianapolis is a lot better because itís a flatter track Ė meaning running side-by-side continuously is difficult.

Btw, welcome back laker. Smile
Thanks. Things like this happen which just make you want to understand, and grieve with others who feel the same.

But with Wheldon's he was simply a victim of circumtance and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He made no mistakes, his car performed perfectly, he just happened to get caught up in someone else's accident to tragic consequences. So I guess the loss feels even more "unfair" than in previous cases.


So true, it all started in a totally separate accident when Saavedra clipped Hinchcliffeís car. Wheldon was just trying to avoid the crap in front of him. But as itís been established, there are no minor accidents with this pack racing. When you run cars on top of each other in a continuous way, only multiple pile ups occur with zero reaction times from the drivers.

Quote :
Therefore, I personally am of the belief that the drivers further forward who had the intial coming together have alot to answer for.

Racing in this pack-style racing at that speed must be very nerve-wrenching, but Saavedra has a lot to answer for. He drove into Hinchcliffeís car when he had space to his outside, which sent them both spinning, but the rest of the pack didnít have time to slow down. It is also a product of this full throttle racing with no tangible differences in speeds, resulting in the pack racing. It takes one mistake for hell to break loose.

Quote :
I always preferred Champ Cars to IRL back in the day(late 90s/early 00s) as I always felt the cars made the drivers drive more by making them lift off into corners. I remember going to Chicago Motor Speedway in 99 and it was a cracking race with accidents, but they were always at controlled speeds. The same with Milwaukee, New Hampshire etc. Even Rockingham and Lausitzring were semi-sensible. But this blind flat-out racing doesn't wash with me. I don't like it. Fontana, Michigan and any 1.5m+ size circuit without four defined turns like Indianapolis are not worthy of holding indycar races any more in my opinion. Constant side-by-side racing is not what single-seater racing should be about.

CART had an aero system called the Handford Device, it allowed the cars to slingshot and get separated. At least it allowed drivers to definitively pass each other without being able to escape one another for endless laps. As I said before, the cars need 900 bhp and a huge loss in downforce, which would require the drivers to brake for the corners. In turn, meaning running side-by-side at identical speeds for a whole race would be impossible Ė and so much more interesting to watch. That is the only way racing at 1.5 to 2 mile ovals could work.

This wide open throttle racing is utterly boring, the drivers just steer the cars and are stuck in a box. If they lift off even for a second, theyíll get torpedoed from behind. This type of racing leaves no options for drivers. Of course, if the cars had 900 bhp they would be ballistic on the straights, but the straights arenít where the high banking is. It would create more variety, driver input, be safer and would be better to watch Ė everybodyís a winner.

Quote :
It's been heartwarming to see the reaction in the media. A relatively small number of people in Britain not interested in racing seemed to know Dan Wheldon but the size of reaction has been huge.

Indeed, Iím really glad that a British driver that isnít from F1 is getting recognition from the mass media about their achievements. It opens average joeís eyes about how dangerous and different other forms of motor racing are.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:40 am

i wouldn't blame anyone for this. it was just crash, yes someone lost their life but the blaming game is really needed......however i belive it was Wade Cunningham that one of drivers or reporters said on twitter.....

when indy car said it was running vegas i thought it was on the streets like champ car did in 07 Question Arrow
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:58 am

The initial reaction of myself and most other people seems to be the loss of a great driver and person, which is totally correct. But now is the right time to start discuss how it happened and other issues. The way that Saavedra drove, he started the initial contact in turn 1 - that cannot be ignored. Most people seem to think the volume of cars and the track was to blame (which is incorrect) - other people are also playing the blame game.

Saavdra is not totally at fault though, as I said, a lot of other factors resulted in this tragic crash.

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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:03 am

yes. its time to find out what happen and it will be sorted in proper manner

what is annoying me is the BBC and the daily mail......the BBC saying Darren turner is replacing Dan at surfers SINCE WHEN HAVE THEY COVERED V8's they just on the ban wagon as they do.

Daily mail complete wankers. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049949/Dan-Wheldon-crash-video-IndyCar-champion-dead-15-car-pile-Las-Vegas.html#ixzz1b5aTM0DS

"The Wheldon family - whose son Dan was privately educated at the nearby Bedford School - own a seven bedroom large sandstone cottage in the village."

What has that have to do with anything......
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PostSubject: Re: IndyCar - Las Vegas   Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:17 am

Death creates interest, intrigue and therefore media attention. That is terrible, but that's how it's been for ages. When Dario flipped upside down at Michigan a while back, Sky News showed the crash when they never usually report on IndyCar. On the flip side though, at least the mass media has informed viewers of Wheldon's achievments, driving talent and showed who he was. Even though they couldn't give a crap about IndyCar.

All media outlets are as guilty as each other, but the Daily Mail is a particularly repulsive publication in general.

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