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Big-AL
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:27 am

Calden 2 wrote:
Calden 2 wrote:
Maybe i'm biast bt then I will be I support the team always have, but to me 2 years is far better than nowt lets face it they've hardly let them get away with it have they
I mean we're all allowed to say what we feel don't have issue with that, just my point whats difference between this and the Ferrari 'let Micheal pass for the championship Rubens please'

[quote=Big-Al]
the difference between what Renault did & Ferrari 'let Micheal pass for the championship Rubens please' did is that at the time the time what Ferrari did was within the realms of 'team rules/orders' & even though it was cheating every single team had done it & it was all in the open, nobody talked about it but everyone accepted it, but after that one indecent when Rubans stopped on the last lap & let Micheal pass, the fans had had enough although we knew it went on it was just to blatant & it was then banned by the FIA.


Right so yeah it was banned by the FIA, and theres the thing it was a team order just like this Renault saga so now theres a difference in a team order now, so if Barrichello had crashed like Nelson had been told to do would that not be the same thing?? as Micheal still won the the race just like Fernando did only difference to me is that at the time Rubens was second in the race not last like Nelson was, but hey what do I know i'm already feeling like everyones right on this apart from me and everything I say is bollocks and is proberly ignored

firstly;
Quote :
but hey what do I know i'm already feeling like everyones right on this apart from me and everything I say is bollocks and is proberly ignored
no, that is not true.

there is a clear difference between a discussion & a argument,

the order given to Rubens to let Micheal past was to allow Micheal to gain the most points for his championship (just as many other drivers have done in the past) the difference is that the Ferrari order only impacted their own two drivers & they just swapped places, the same happens now but not so obviously.

the order given to Nelson to crash was to allow Alonso to gain a unfair advantage over every other driver, it was also dangerous to Nelson, spectators, marshal's & other drivers, another driver could have easily driven into Nelson & seriously injured one or both of them, the closing of the pits due to the safety car being deployed meant that many drivers had to come into the pits to refuel even though they knew they would have to make a stop-go as coming into the pits when the safety car was on track is against the rules, thus making it even worse to the drivers who had to stop.

the only thing that comes close to this in F1 is spygate, now that was more of a criminal offense & not a cheating offense, however McLaren dismissed the guy who took the information, & yet they were fined $100,000,000 & one year suspended ban, now Renault have done the same thing & they get a two year suspended ban, if they had been given a fine also they would have had to pay it & most likely quit F1, the FIA had a choice do we ban/fine Renault because if we do they may quit, that is a conflict of interest, if this had gone to the The Court of Arbitration for Sport Renault would have been banned from F1 there is no question because The Court of Arbitration for Sport have no commercial interest in Renault being part of F1 & would have ruled by the available evidence.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:58 am

How is robbing your main rivals data to benefit your cars performance NOT cheating??!
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:15 am

As I said on GPL, GET OVER IT!

The FIA have spoken, The WMSC have spoken.

Look at it in Football terms, would someone be happy if the team got banned, for a player diving in order to manipulate a result?
In Rugby, should a team be banned for a player gourging (or however its spelt) another player?


You say theres no I in team, but there is always a culprit, and if they are found, why should peoples livelyhoods be affected because of one, or in this case, 3 mens desires?


Put yourself in the shoes of an engineer in the factory. You know nothing about what happened, yet find yourself banned, kicked out etc. How would you feel? Hard done by perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:24 am

Smith wrote:
How is robbing your main rivals data to benefit your cars performance NOT cheating??!

they or should i say McLaren engineer Mike Coughlan were given the data by Ferrari employee Nigel Stepney, this is a case of industrial espionage thus there was a criminal investigation into what had happened, & no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari.

McLaren were fined $100,000,000 & excluded from points etc in the 2007 season which also meant they lost pit position & entitlement to constructor points related tv money.

to get technical McLaren didn't brake any FIA rules (at the time) where as Renault or actions by Renault employees did brake FIA rules.

also;

On 8 November 2007, the FIA announced that the Renault F1 team would be summoned before the FIA World Motorsport Council to answer a charge of possession of confidential information relating to the 2006 and 2007 McLaren Formula One cars. The statement issued by the FIA states that Renault F1 was found to have information "including, but not limited to the layout and critical dimensions of the McLaren F1 car, together with details of the McLaren fuelling system, gear assembly, oil cooling system, hydraulic control system and a novel suspension component used by the 2006 and 2007 McLaren F1 cars". The date for the hearing was set for December 6, 2007.[15] The espionage claims are thought to revolve around an employee, Philip Mackereth, who transferred from McLaren to Renault, according to FIA President Max Mosley.

At an Extraordinary General Meeting of the World Motorsport Council, Renault are found to be guilty of breaching Article 151c of the International Sporting Code. They are not punished.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:27 am

It was still cheating
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:05 pm

Big-AL wrote:
the order given to Rubens to let Micheal past was to allow Micheal to gain the most points for his championship (just as many other drivers have done in the past) the difference is that the Ferrari order only impacted their own two drivers & they just swapped places, the same happens now but not so obviously.

Actually it impacted on a lot more than just their two drivers... it also impacted countless spectators who had placed bets on the race who, a lap from the finish, were celebrating their wins only to find that Ferrari screwed them bigtime.

Imagine if the same thing happened at the end of the Grand National. There would be a national outcry. I cannot see any Racing Post Forum member writing "it only impacted Aidan O'Brien's two riders, so get over it", what's the difference?? Both Racing and F1 are sports. Both attract bets at bookies. Therefore if the sports are to remain credible we cannot have people fixing races, period.

Quote :
the order given to Nelson to crash was to allow Alonso to gain a unfair advantage over every other driver, it was also dangerous to Nelson, spectators, marshal's & other drivers, another driver could have easily driven into Nelson & seriously injured one or both of them, the closing of the pits due to the safety car being deployed meant that many drivers had to come into the pits to refuel even though they knew they would have to make a stop-go as coming into the pits when the safety car was on track is against the rules, thus making it even worse to the drivers who had to stop.

Indeed. This was a spectacularly reckless "strategy", not only in terms of danger for Piquet but for others on the track too. I mean... how hard do you crash into a wall in order to ensure a Safety Car comes out??? No point just knocking off a front wing, is there? That won't do the job... you need to do a fair bit of damage... make sure the car isn't drivable. In an age where we are constantly trying to improve safety this sort of thing beggars belief. Renault really should feel VERY grateful that they've not had the book thrown at them. Which driver was it that got into trouble for trying to get back to the pits on 3 wheels??? Was that Vettel?? To say that the FIA is inconsistent is an understatement.

Quote :
the only thing that comes close to this in F1 is spygate, now that was more of a criminal offense & not a cheating offense, however McLaren dismissed the guy who took the information, & yet they were fined $100,000,000 & one year suspended ban, now Renault have done the same thing & they get a two year suspended ban, if they had been given a fine also they would have had to pay it & most likely quit F1, the FIA had a choice do we ban/fine Renault because if we do they may quit, that is a conflict of interest, if this had gone to the The Court of Arbitration for Sport Renault would have been banned from F1 there is no question because The Court of Arbitration for Sport have no commercial interest in Renault being part of F1 & would have ruled by the available evidence.

Maybe Flavio and Symonds will now go ahead and set up the rival series... I do hope so... I'm getting so sick of the politics in F1.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:11 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:18 pm

Dare I add that Piquet was so useless he would probably have crashed anyway?
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:56 am

seanmiller wrote:
Big-AL wrote:
the order given to Rubens to let Micheal past was to allow Micheal to gain the most points for his championship (just as many other drivers have done in the past) the difference is that the Ferrari order only impacted their own two drivers & they just swapped places, the same happens now but not so obviously.

Actually it impacted on a lot more than just their two drivers... it also impacted countless spectators who had placed bets on the race who, a lap from the finish, were celebrating their wins only to find that Ferrari screwed them bigtime.

Imagine if the same thing happened at the end of the Grand National. There would be a national outcry. I cannot see any Racing Post Forum member writing "it only impacted Aidan O'Brien's two riders, so get over it", what's the difference?? Both Racing and F1 are sports. Both attract bets at bookies. Therefore if the sports are to remain credible we cannot have people fixing races, period.

i agree with the betting issue, but F1 is a team sport & since that happened team orders have been banned.

Quote :
Renault will stay in Formula 1 despite damage caused to its reputation by the recent Singapore race-fix scandal.

Submissions made to governing body the FIA during Monday's hearing, where the team got a suspended disqualification from the sport, confirmed their stance.

Renault said that, after consideration, it wanted to "continue to make an important contribution to the sport".
from BBC sport.

seems that everyone has got off then Reanult are not leaving F1 & as Flav is taking legal advice & action against the FIA in regards to his so called ban from FIA sanctioned events, as he wasn't allowed to defend himself & nor has he been found guilty of anything, & the ban may fall foul of EU law ;

Quote :

Article 40 EC: The Council shall, acting in accordance with the procedure referred to in Article 251 and after consulting the Economic an Social Committee, issue directives or make regulations setting out the measures requiredto bring about freedom of movement for workers, as defined in Article 39, in particular:(...) (d) by setting up appropriate machineryto bring offers of employment into touch with applications for employment and to facilitate the achievement of a balance between supply and demand in the employment market in such a way as to avoid serious threats to the standard of living and level of employment in the various regions and industries.

Community charter of the social fundamental rights of workers adopted by the Heads of State and of Government (11 Member States) on 9 December 1989.
Paragraph 6: Every individual must be able to have access to public placement services free of charge.

Regulation (EEC) 1612/68, of the Council of 15 October 1968, on freedom of movement for workers within the Community.
Danish special edition ....: Series-I III Chapter 1966-1972 p. 0013

Regulation (EEC) 2434/92, of 27 July 1992 amending Part II of Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 on freedom of movement for workers within the Community.

Commission Decision 2003/8/EC, of 23 December 2002 implementing Council Regulation (EEC) No 1612/68 as regards the clearance of vacancies and applications for employment (Text with EEA relevance) (notified under document number C(2002) 5236)
Official Journal L 005 , 10/01/2003 P. 0016 - 0019

Article 1 of the European Social Charter of 1961 establishes the right of access to a free employment service as being an integral element of the right to work, defined as the possibility of "earning one's living in an occupation freely entered upon". The State's recognition of this right obliges it to establish employment services giving job seekers access to available job offers and enabling them to publicise applications. In substance, this is the content of Article 29 of the Charter, which also incorporates paragraph 6 of the 1989 Community Charter of the Fundamental Social Rights of Workers, which states that "every individual must be ableto have access to public placement services free of charge."

i hope Flav can overturn his ban Smile


seems strange that a sporting governing body will take no action against a team that has broken the rules, as long as the singular person or persons that may be responsibly are effectively sacked, this now means that any team can now do what ever they like & as long as they sack someone who could be implemented in the action, the rest of the team will walk free from any effective punishment.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:22 am

Quote :
The FIA`s conclusion is carry on cheating, sack your Team Principal and your Race engineer and we will take it from there.

We will sort something out by giving immunity to some of the guilty parties , so long as they come clean.

What a load of cods wallop.

I actually posted something similar yesterday evening. Re your last post ( Big -Al)
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:29 am

ns-mitneal wrote:
Dare I add that Piquet was so useless he would probably have crashed anyway?

As i've said a number of times Laughing I really would have thought if they'd left it a bit longer he'd have crashed anyway, although maybe it got a bit too long and the team thought oh hang on hes not smashed it yet, better get on to him get him to no one will notice cos hes crap anyway
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:34 am

I'm in favour of Renault being kept in - I disagree with Al and Chris. Renault as a whole weren't at fault, it was merely the three individuals. Therefore why should the whole team be punished?

If a whole team had been in on it, then fine - ban them all. But they weren't and it would be so harsh to wipe out a whole team for the actions of these three. Surely the aim for the FIA is to punish those who were involved (tick) and prevent it from happening again (only time will tell here but anyone else in Renault, or for that matter F1 woud be pretty stupid to try it again).

Sorry, but I think those who want Renault banned completely are over reacting and being completely unreasonable.
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:44 am

No and on that point that Renault arn't wholey to blame I really agree with you they arn't its down to the 2 on the pit wall that made the decission and of course Nelson tit face

So no can't fully straight ban Renault F1 from it as they (as a team) didn't cheat
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:26 am

http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5577692,00.html

The unanswered questions from Crash Gate. The third paragraph looks interesting.

* Max Mosley said that Renault's
punishment was "the harshest one we can, because Renault have
demonstrated they have no moral responsibility for what took place".
What happened to the principle of collective responsibility as laid out
in the FIA International Sporting Code which states that 'the entrant
shall be responsible for all acts or omissions on the part of their
driver, mechanic and passengers, each equally responsible for any
breach of this code'?
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:53 am

Interesting stuff in the Daily Mirror today.

Not only did we hear Nelson's side (which sounded pretty grim, to be honest)...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/motorsport/2009/09/23/crashgate-has-no-angels-just-demons-115875-21693891/

...but we also heard Flav is going to set up a RIVAL SERIES!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/motorsport/2009/09/23/disgraced-flavio-briatore-plots-rival-f1-series-115875-21693855/

Now THERE is a surprise :-)

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:22 pm

chris borg wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5577692,00.html

The unanswered questions from Crash Gate. The third paragraph looks interesting.

* Max Mosley said that Renault's
punishment was "the harshest one we can, because Renault have
demonstrated they have no moral responsibility for what took place".
What happened to the principle of collective responsibility as laid out
in the FIA International Sporting Code which states that 'the entrant
shall be responsible for all acts or omissions on the part of their
driver, mechanic and passengers, each equally responsible for any
breach of this code'?
That's a bloody stupid rule anyway. Wink I agree however that they should apply the rules they set out. Maybe Renault should have been more vigilent over their own team, however I think the only things they are guilty of is maybe naivity or neglect - I don't think anyone can possibly claim they even knew about the decision to get Piquet to crash, let alone support it.

I do think that article is interesting though. I'm most intrigued by the fact the result still stands. Shouldn't Alonso have his win taken away which will in turn affect the result also the world championship? Ok so Hamilton would actually have won the title by three points if Alonso is just excluded but he loses the title by five points if the result is declared void......
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:30 am

Laker wrote:
I'm in favour of Renault being kept in - I disagree with Al and Chris. Renault as a whole weren't at fault, it was merely the three individuals. Therefore why should the whole team be punished?

If a whole team had been in on it, then fine - ban them all. But they weren't and it would be so harsh to wipe out a whole team for the actions of these three. Surely the aim for the FIA is to punish those who were involved (tick) and prevent it from happening again (only time will tell here but anyone else in Renault, or for that matter F1 woud be pretty stupid to try it again).

Sorry, but I think those who want Renault banned completely are over reacting and being completely unreasonable.

Absolutely. I cannot quite comprehend the opinion that the whole team should be punished for three individual’s actions. The facts of the case are that four individuals were involved (Flavio, Symonds, Piquet and ‘witness x’) and they are the guilty individuals of planning and implementing the crash. Nobody else knew, the pit crew never knew, the engineers back in Enstone never knew, the Renault CEO never knew – so why penalise an entire organisation?

I have criticised the FIA on a number of occasions and still disagree with some of their decisions like banning Flavio from all FIA events for life, but for once the FIA have handed the punishments and the specific individuals that did the crime – not the other innocent employees. Just what is the point of heavily punishing the entire team? F1 teams are large organisations but only about 100 personnel travel to the Grands Prix so hiding something would have been easier enough. Perhaps to some people this crashgate scandal leaves teams to do whatever they like and only individuals get punished, but in reality in every F1 scandal it’s only been specific individuals who have been involved. Banning a whole team for three individuals actions is incredibly stupid and that sort of mentality totally negates the issue of the crime committed and effectively the actual guilty individuals get the same punishment as the poor innocent employees further down the hierarchy who had nothing to do with it – how absurd is that?

Nelson Piquet Jr is a complete and utter disgrace to Formula One and should crawl back into whatever hole he came out of, perhaps he should be a stuntman? They do a lot of crashing. I still fully support Flavio and Pat Symonds – two extremely important people in F1.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:05 pm

an indiviaduls actions are the responsibilty of the company they work for, i believe it's called coperate responsibility. It's to stop big companys blaming one man for the companys actions and then carrying on as before

in the eys of the law i believe renault should have been punsihed and not those who did the deed. Of course i may misunderstand this law as i'm not a lawwer.
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:24 am

I see what you’re saying, but I don’t see why the entire Renault team should be punished for 4 people’s acts. The rest of the team are entirely innocent according to the evidence so effectively the innocent employees will be guilty just like Flavio, Piquet etc. And that doesn’t make much sense, for once the FIA have accurately targeted the punishments at specific individuals, which in cases like these is exactly how it should be.

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:05 am

Surprised




they are now trying to ruin everyone else's practice & testing time just because their car is crap, they want to stop the others gaining a advantage Sad

in the times today, they compared F1 to WWE wrestling as both are not sports anymore but a circus Razz

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:41 am

Yawnage to the max Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:43 am

Smith wrote:
Yawnage to the max Rolling Eyes

awwww come on, i'm only pulling your leg, or are they Suspect

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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:44 am

Big-AL wrote:
Smith wrote:
Yawnage to the max Rolling Eyes

awwww come on, i'm only pulling your leg, or are they Suspect

I dont know, your post on GPL about not kidding confused me scratch Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:30 pm

this isn't the first cheating in f1, there has been lots of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Crash Gate.   Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:04 pm

Exactly, so I'm cool about cheating.

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