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seanmiller
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PostSubject: Why Qualifying?   Mon Jun 15, 2009 6:28 pm

What is the point of Qualifying in Le Mans? Are grid positions really relevant to a 24-hour-race with a straight so long that it would be impossible for a faster car not to overtake?

Surely you'd get a more interesting first segment of the race if you simply allocated positions on the grid randomly and then let the positions develop naturally?

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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:08 pm

INTERESTING IDEA but (and sorry about the shouting) being at the front can make a difference, especially at the start. The first hour is always manic and if your at the front you do have an advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 am

Its also for if you bin your car in the 6hours free practice you can do you laps and nights lap then.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:27 am

I assume you'd still have those 4 hour, it would be practice as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:33 am

The race has been for the past few years, a sprint race in about 32 parts, so Thursday qually (Wednesday was just practice this year) is very important
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:55 am

I don't understand the logic behind that... why is Thursday Quali important because it's a 32-stage sprint race?

Surely considering the amount of time involved the result would be pretty much the same whether a team started last or first? If the team on pole ended up 20 seconds a lap slower than the team in (say) 20th surely it would not take long for the situation to right itself?

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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:10 am

Because most of the cars are run as near to 100% performance as they can achieve. yes the faster cars will naturally make their way to the front of the field, but as in yesterdays days race, only 1 lap separated the 1st 2 cars, or between 3.30 & 7.00 minutes which is very close for a 24hr race, it equates to around a 15 - 30 second gap in a F1 race run over 1.5hr.

How long would it it take the fastest LMP1 starting 55th and last to catch the 2nd fastest car that starts first? After 5 laps it would possibly be up to around 15th with the 2nd place car stretching its lead, but the potential for accidents passing the slower cars and possible pit stop problems make it IMO not worth the risk.

I think it was in 1969 that Jackie Ickx refused to run across the track to start the ace, he waited for the cars to leave then walked across, took his time strapping in, then started his race, he won that year, so it is possible to win form the back.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:38 am

Every car race must have a Practice , Qualifying period ! Years ago the LE MANS grid was determined by engine capacity, larger engines at the front of the grid smaller one's to the rear ! I can if you wish find the year this stopped ! I have it written down somewhere , AS for 1969 when JACKY ICKX in protest of safety ! walked to his car THEN fasten the seat belts before setting off ! Little did he know it would save him from the very bad accident at White House where the PORSHE 917 of John Woolf crashed and he died ! but as a result a number of cars pitted due to running over the fiery debray ,
What is forgotten is the unique nature of LE MANS cars do need to test before the start of the race.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:48 pm

If they had had a random grid at the start of this years race the 5 car battle for the lead of the GT2 category that took up the first 6 hours of the race wouldn't have occurred. farao
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:42 pm

willyj wrote:
If they had had a random grid at the start of this years race the 5 car battle for the lead of the GT2 category that took up the first 6 hours of the race wouldn't have occurred. farao
lol!
Why would anyone who is an enthusiast of LE MANS want to see less track time ! Too me it's a shame now they have stooped the test weekend !! that the cars could not test/practice ALL the Wednesday ....... say from morning thou to dark
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:22 pm

Glenn wrote:
Because most of the cars are run as near to 100% performance as they can achieve. yes the faster cars will naturally make their way to the front of the field, but as in yesterdays days race, only 1 lap separated the 1st 2 cars, or between 3.30 & 7.00 minutes which is very close for a 24hr race, it equates to around a 15 - 30 second gap in a F1 race run over 1.5hr.

Actually 1 lap only separated the first two cars because Seb slowed down to allow the Gene car to lap him for the formation finish. The time difference prior to that was around 2 minutes.

Quote :
How long would it it take the fastest LMP1 starting 55th and last to catch the 2nd fastest car that starts first? After 5 laps it would possibly be up to around 15th with the 2nd place car stretching its lead, but the potential for accidents passing the slower cars and possible pit stop problems make it IMO not worth the risk.

I wasn't suggesting it, just asking the question as to whether at the end of 24 hours the result would be particularly different if qualifying never happened.

Quote :
I think it was in 1969 that Jackie Ickx refused to run across the track to start the ace, he waited for the cars to leave then walked across, took his time strapping in, then started his race, he won that year, so it is possible to win form the back.

Don't suggest the same to Narain K... he'd probably strangle himself strapping in... ;-)

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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:55 am

I wonder if the ACO would still enforce this precedent in the event of a dead heat "An attempt to dead-heat with three GT40 MkIIs, victory actually going to the Bruce McLaren/Chris Amon car because, having started further down the grid order, it had travelled furthest in the 24 hours"
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seanmiller
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:02 am

Glenn wrote:
I wonder if the ACO would still enforce this precedent in the event of a dead heat "An attempt to dead-heat with three GT40 MkIIs, victory actually going to the Bruce McLaren/Chris Amon car because, having started further down the grid order, it had travelled furthest in the 24 hours"

Actually I think that's rather a good precedent... effectively it's the equivilent of saying "if there is a dead heat the number of positions gained from the start will be taken into account".

Ultimately the pole sitter has an advantage as long as they have a good start as they don't have to deal with traffic until some time into the race. Therefore the achievement of the competitor who comes from further down the field is that little bit greater!

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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:25 am

I think most teams would be shocked if qualifying was scrapped,ok getting pole position is'nt vital but the main reason for it is setup,audi proved that the lack of racing and practising dented their chances of winning at Le mans,all teams need as much time as they can get to iron out any faults.
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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:42 am

Midge25 wrote:
I think most teams would be shocked if qualifying was scrapped,ok getting pole position is'nt vital but the main reason for it is setup,audi proved that the lack of racing and practising dented their chances of winning at Le mans,all teams need as much time as they can get to iron out any faults.

As I've said, I wasn't talking about scrapping qualifying... just speculating as to the effect it would have on the result after 24 hours if the grid positions were allocated randomly.

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PostSubject: Re: Why Qualifying?   Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:00 am

I like how Le Mans operates as it is, in terms of sessions.

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